The breakout session on "Building Green Jobs from the Ground Up" at the AFL-CIO's national convention was slated to end at 5 p.m., but at 5:30 about half of the attendees were still there as Jerome Ringo pressed home the point that the question-and-answer session, which some thought had gotten off track, was still within reach of the topic.

While the loss of 79 million manufacturing jobs over the past decade or so creates enough pain throughout the economy to make job creation the most obvious focus of labor's involvement in the green movement, Mr. Ringo said, "the greatest pain is within the things that we don't see," such as child care issues that can make it harder for someone to get and keep a job, or recidivism among those who have been incarcerated.

"We've got to have the willingness and the courage to address all of these related issues," he said.

Mr. Ringo, president of the Apollo Alliance, a consortium of labor and environmental groups, was one of five panelists for the session, along with Margrete Strand, deputy director of the Blue Green Alliance; Fred Redmond, vice president of human affairs for the United Steelworkers; Sean McGarvey, secretary-treasurer of building and construction trades department of the International Union of Painters and Allied Trades; and Ken Allen, executive director of Oregon's Council 75 of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees.

Moderator Jeff Ricker, director of the AFL-CIO Center for Green Jobs, kicked off the discussion by asking the panel to define a green job. Ms. Strand gave the most succinct and easily-remembered answer, "a blue-collar job with a green purpose."

From there, the discussion touched on a wide range of topics. Mr. McGarvey spoke about the opportunity for job creation in retrofitting the nation's building stock. Ms. Strand emphasized the need for labor to work with non-labor groups in reciprocal fashion, noting that the Sierra Club, a member of her group, has taken a strong stand in favor of the Employee Free Choice Act.

And the panelists repeatedly returned to the theme of government's role, both in making policy and in funding green initiatives.

"There are no more Carnegies out there," to fund massive projects with long payoff periods, Mr. Redmond said, referring to industrialist/philanthropist Andrew Carnegie.

"It's going to take the federal government to jump-start this process."