In the old days, when Allegheny County was run by three commissioners, the question of illegal meetings didn't come up.

Quorum, schmorum. Democratic commissioners Tom Foerster and Pete Flaherty could form a majority any time they passed in the hall. Ditto for the brief fling that Republicans Larry Dunn and Bob Cranmer had in the late 1990s before they split over irreconcilable differences.

The county's voters decided in May 1998 that this ancient legislative/executive hybrid was no way to run a modern metropolis. So we got ourselves this new arrangement that's more like most governments: One executive complemented by a legislative branch, in this case a part-time council.

Alas, it's pretty clear that county Democrats miss the old days when everything would be already decided before a public vote was taken. Because, for years, they've been holding closed-door meetings in violation of the state's Sunshine Act.

Democrats have 11 of the 15 votes on County Council, and council President Rich Fitzgerald revealed last month that the Dems routinely held closed-door caucus sessions to discuss upcoming legislation. That went on for seven years.

Now they've stopped, though they still don't admit they were doing anything wrong.

It's pretty clear they did, though, and Jim Roddey, the Republican who was chief executive before Dan Onorato knocked him out in 2003, is suing.

One shouldn't get the impression, merely because he is suing, that Mr. Roddey is particularly angry. He's not an angry guy. He's a seasoned politician who sees the Dems blowing holes in the county home rule charter, and if that works out as a political gift to his party, so be it.

Here's the beef: Mr. Onorato met in July with Democratic members of council behind closed doors. Mr. Onorato acknowledged yesterday that, at some point, there were nine or 10 council members in the room.

That's enough for a quorum, but Mr. Onorato was adamant that there was no discussion of pending legislation and "there was no straw vote when I was there." They met with legal counsel to discuss what the home rule charter allows and does not allow.

You don't need to hear such a boilerplate legal brief behind closed doors either, but leave that go. Mr. Roddey says a Democrat in the meeting has said a straw vote was taken that day. He couldn't reveal his source but, if there was such a vote, that would be a stark violation of the open meetings law.

The belief is the Democrats were in there to figure out how to respond to a citizens referendum to overturn the 10 percent drink tax. Because not too long after the meeting, the Democrats countered with this very smart and slick referendum that asks simply:

"Shall the county enact an ordinance to increase real estate taxes in order to repeal the alcoholic drink tax?"

Who, apart from bar owners and bar flies, is going to vote ''yes" on that?

Mr. Roddey says the Democrats' referendum question is actually two questions, but there his case is weak. (If you ask your daughter if she wants juice or milk, you're asking only one question, not two.) The stronger argument is that discussion in an illegal meeting led to circumventing the charter so that "any time any citizens group gets a referendum that council or the chief executive doesn't like, they can create their own competing ordinance."

That's worth arguing.

Mr. Onorato points out that a week after the closed meeting in question, the council vote was 14-0 to amend the administrative code to allow council to initiate referenda. The Republicans voted with the Democrats then, an inconvenient truth for Republicans seeking a pure political score.

Mr. Onorato also argues that the bar owners' referendum is illegal because it puts the county budget out of balance. Mr. Roddey, he said, is just trying to get a judge involved in county property reassessments again.

"He calls me 'Dan, Dan the Tax Man,' " Mr. Onorato said. "He's 'Roddy the Reassessor.' Bring him on."

It's funny that after all the changes in county government, it still looks as if the direction of government still comes down to two guys. Only this is no team. This rivalry now has gone on longer than Ali-Frazier.