The dinner conversations at Amvets Post 103 in Fayette County touch on issues familiar to most working families -- the future of the kids and grandkids, the spike in gas prices, the shrinking dollar and other pocketbook issues, Pitt's March Madness prospects.

But within a veterans organization whose newest members are those who have served in Iraq, the subject of the war is like background noise. It can't be ignored and never quite goes away, in this, the first presidential election since 1968 in which the new commander-in-chief will inherit a divisive war.

"The surge has worked to tamp down some of the violence over there, so people aren't talking about it as much. In most everybody's mind, the economy is the number one issue," said post commander Patrick Britt, 65, of Uniontown.

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"John McCain has some support because he served, but I don't know if he can handle the economy. This country has multiple problems. It's a bad situation. It's a mess. These are hard times."

That said, Pennsylvania politics is like its rainfall -- each has some acid in it. And those who have served their country are quick to separate the war from the warriors as they recall a phrase that they thought had been buried long ago -- the danger of putting unlimited power in the hands of limited minds.

"From what I hear from our members, most people are against the way the war in Iraq has been handled. But support for the troops never wavers," Mr. Britt said, reflecting the sentiments also found in public opinion polls. "I never thought a president would be dumb enough to do that again."

At the foot of Summit Mountain in Hopwood, Amvets Post 103 is only a few miles from where a young George Washington tasted his first battle and was forced to surrender his forces at Fort Necessity at the outset of the French and Indian War. It's also one county over from the crash site of United Flight 93, whose passengers fought back on Sept 11.

The post built a Vietnam Veterans Memorial engraved with the names of 50 Fayette County residents, including one MIA, lost in a divisive war. Echoes can be heard from those who felt they were misled into and during that war as well.

"It's like a light switch that turns on but doesn't turn off," said Gene Funk, 61, of Lick Hollow, a combat engineer with the Army's 9th Infantry Division during the Tet offensive. "I still have flashbacks, nightmares, sleeplessness."

Working behind the bar, Cindy Friend, of Frazier, has reason to follow current events because she has a son in Iraq.

"We have some Iraq veterans as members, but they don't come around much," she said. "Some of them have been over there four times. If you make the decision to send people off to war, you should stand behind the military with more than just words."

Pennsylvania has about 1.2 million veterans, one of the highest totals in the country. Membership in organizations like the state Veterans of Foreign Wars and the American Legion outpaces all other states. Veterans don't belong to a single party or vote as a single bloc, but the value of their support is reflected by the ranks of the military veterans stumping for their candidates.

Vietnam veteran Sen. John McCain, who has the Republican nomination sewn up, is a former Navy pilot and POW who plans to follow the strategy begun by President Bush, who as the war enters its sixth year steadfastly defends it as "noble" and "just."

The two Democratic contenders -- Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama -- each have Iraq combat veterans on their campaign committees who believe the war is on the wrong track.

"This is the most important election in a generation. America is at a strategic crossroads. It's got a decision to make," said U.S. Rep. Joe Sestak, a retired three-star admiral who leads Pennsylvania Veterans For Clinton from his home district in southeastern Pennsylvania.

Forty or so years ago, dissent against administration policies largely came from college students subject to a military draft and those with moral objections to an undeclared war. What's noteworthy now is that dissent is coming from some of those who participated in the current conflict and then ran for office to seek a change in course.

The son of a Navy captain, Mr. Sestak spent 31 years in the Navy and commanded the USS George Washington carrier battle group, which took part in the run-up to the Iraq war. While there was never a question of following orders, he knew in his heart of hearts that Iraq would be the wrong war at the wrong time.

"I thought it was a tragic misadventure," he said. "One of the tragedies of this war is we took our eye off the ball. You don't divide your forces. It's a failed policy."

The former director for defense policy in President Bill Clinton's administration, Mr. Sestak believes Mrs. Clinton has the necessary experience and the wherewithal to make change happen.

The state chairman of the Obama campaign is U.S. Rep. Patrick Murphy, a former law professor at West Point and a former captain in the 82nd Airborne Division. The recipient of a Bronze Star for his service, he won a congressional seat in 2006 in a heavily Republican district in southeastern Pennsylvania after serving in Baghdad.

Mr. Murphy, author of the book "Taking The Hill," believes the Bush administration is "criminally negligent" for its handling of the Iraq war, which he calls the biggest foreign policy blunder in U.S. history. He said that not enough troops were sent to secure the country, and there was no plan to win the peace.

"We have a fundamental disagreement," he said. "There were 19 paratroopers in my unit who lost their lives over there, and they deserve a government as honest and decent as they were."

Airborne paratroopers, whose forefathers jumped into Normandy in advance of D-Day in World War II, pride themselves on completing any mission they're given. But Mr. Murphy said soldiers have a constitutional duty to stand up if they believe the civilian authority acted inappropriately.

The congressman's wife, Jenni, voted twice for George W. Bush, but she introduced Mr. Obama at his first campaign event in Pennsylvania.

Part of the effort of the Pennsylvania Veterans for Obama is a grass-roots phone bank to reach veterans. It is run out of Bucks County by Koby Langley, also a former Airborne captain. He resigned his commission after returning from his tour in Baghdad in 2003.

"This election will be a clear break from the errors in judgment that got us into this mess. It's one thing to make a mistake. It's another to make a mistake and not be accountable," Mr. Langley said.

After the painful experience of Vietnam, military commanders in 1991 in Desert Storm vowed that never again would troops be committed without the support of the American public, and never again would they fight without a clear mission and without overwhelming force. The first President Bush turned the planning over to the military, and when it was over, he proclaimed that "the Vietnam Syndrome has been kicked once and for all."

But L. Skip Haswell, retired chief of police in Beaver Falls who served a 14-month tour in Vietnam with the 1st Marine Division, has found himself distressed over headlines about Marine deaths in Iraq.

"I sat down for a long time with it bringing back so many memories. Because of this war, a lot is coming back now," he said. "You will find no group that supports our men and women more than the Vietnam veterans. We live by the motto that never again shall one generation of veterans abandon another."

The son of a steel worker, Mr. Haswell said that the troops in Vietnam weren't defeated on the battlefield, but that the politics of that war were a different matter.

"We are supposed to learn from history," said Mr. Haswell, founder and president of the Beaver County chapter of the Vietnam Veterans of America, the largest such chapter in the state. "When our government pulled us out, we have had to live with [the aftermath] all this time. We didn't have a choice to go, and we didn't have a choice to leave. But that war could have been over sooner. We MUST let the men who have been trained for war to just do the job. We must get the government of Iraq to stand up, take hold and run that country themselves as soon as possible."

He favors Mr. McCain because of his personal military experience, but he added that the VVA encourages its members to cast their ballots, no matter who they favor.

"We tell them to vote, because your brother who didn't make it back can't vote, and this is one of the freedoms he died for," Mr. Haswell said. "Vets are looking for a commander-in-chief who will push Congress to give not only the older vets, but the new ones coming back, what they deserve. We cannot fight for our country and then have to fight with our country."

Veterans organizations have legislative agendas aimed at caring for those who have worn the uniform, including quality health care at Walter Reed Army Medical Center and other hospitals, plus programs tailored to help amputees and those suffering from post-traumatic stress.

John Getz, of Reinholds, Lancaster County, the state commander of the VFW, recently left for Iraq on a mission to reach out to members of the Pennsylvania National Guard currently deployed. With his body armor and Kevlar helmet packed in his luggage, he planned to tell units like the 316th Expeditionary Sustainment Command of Coraopolis that their service is as appreciated as much as those who served in World War II, Korea, Vietnam and the first Gulf War. The unit is stationed at Camp Anaconda in Balad, Iraq.

"Nobody wants war, and we don't have to agree or disagree with what the reasons are, but we support our troops 100 percent," Mr. Getz said.

A Vietnam veteran, he has a son who helped sift through the rubble after the Pentagon was hit on Sept. 11 and who later did tours in Afghanistan and Iraq with the Army's 10th Mountain Division. Support for military families while their spouses are deployed is also a VFW priority.

"About one-half of 1 percent of the U.S. population is directly involved in this war," said Mr. Getz. "It's hard for most people to understand what's going on over there and hard to understand the pressures and the worries on their families."

The American Legion, which describes itself as being in service to veterans even if its members are no longer in uniform, has publicly launched a voter registration drive in Pennsylvania.

"We're not telling people how to vote. We just want them to vote," said state commander Robert Miller, whose son is a Navy petty officer who has done three combat tours in the current war.