NASHVILLE, Tenn. - The on-again, off-again trade talks between the Pirates and Cleveland Indians regarding Jason Bay are most assuredly off.

General manager Neal Huntington, asked this afternoon if any conversations between him and Cleveland are dead, replied with a terse, firm, "Yes."

He then paused and repeated, "Yes."

It was the first time Huntington acknowledged that.

The Pirates and Indians hooked up at 11:30 p.m. Tuesday at the Opryland Hotel to continue discussions regarding Bay and formed the framework of a five-player deal in which Bay and catcher Ronny Paulino would go to Cleveland for outfielder Franklin Gutierrez, catcher Kelly Shoppach and either starter Cliff Lee or a minor-league pitching prospect.

The Pirates met again separately at 8:30 a.m. today but, even before they emerged, Indians officials not only were pronouncing any deal dead but also claiming that the teams had not communicated at all during these Winter Meetings.

A Pirates official confirmed today - emphatically - that the talks happened and that they involved the players in question.

It was mentioned to Huntington that baseball deals often are pronounced dead but get revived, such as previous management's six-month haggling with the Atlanta Braves last year that resulted in the Adam LaRoche trade. He was asked if that could be the case here, too.

"You've seen it enough that it is something that can happen," Huntington said. "But you also see that, when trade talks die, they die. There are so many moving parts that I don't think there are any absolutes. Today, it's dead. Forty-eight hours from now, four weeks from now, who knows?"

It is not known why this version of the trade fizzled. It could be that the Cleveland pitcher was the sticking point, with the Indians wanting to move the $10.5 million Lee is owed the next two season and the Pirates preferring a prospect to address their sagging minor-league system.

On another front, the Pirates and New York Yankees are discussing a trade involving Damaso Marte. Another left-handed reliever, John Grabow, has come up in talks, too, but the focus is thought to be on Marte. The Pirates and Yankees had not made contact regarding relievers until last night.

Tomorrow is the Rule 5 draft. Huntington strongly suggested the Pirates will claim a player with the No. 2 pick.

More details in tomorrow's Post-Gazette.