When Tom Murphy talked to a crowd of fellow government wonks about suburban racism Wednesday, he meant to spur discussion. It worked, but not in the way the mayor intended.

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As far as his timing goes --he is now trying to woo suburban support for city budget reform -- the statements will go directly into the pantheon of impolitic, even inept comments made by the mayor over the years.

But as for their importance and impact, the results were more muddied. They spurred denunciations from suburban legislators who felt targeted, but hurrahs from people who deal with race relations every day.

Yet even the latter group noted that Murphy's exact words went too far.

"You can question how politically astute he was and the way he said it, but the fact is I'm pleased he raised the issue," said Esther Bush, the president of Urban League of Pittsburgh.

"I agree the timing and the choice of words was questionable, but we all know that race is an issue we have to confront," she said. "We treat it as such a taboo, it makes it difficult to discuss on a regular basis."

During a panel discussion of city-county consolidation Wednesday morning, Murphy said racism in the predominantly white Pittsburgh suburbs will be a major hurdle in implementing any such plans.

"It's as if people in the city of Pittsburgh have horns and so we're going to rape their kids and rob their houses," Murphy said in reference to opposition in Hampton to a proposed methadone clinic, but suggesting broader implications.

Murphy's comments may not have been aimed in retaliation for suburbanites not supporting the city budget proposals in the Legislature and for not doing what he thinks is their fair share to keep the city afloat, but that's how they were received.

Sen. Sean Logan, D-Monroeville, a critic of Murphy's budget proposals, said the mayor's comments set merger talks "back 20 years" and would further alienate him from suburban voters.

"If he truly believes that suburbanites are racists, the guy should resign ... I never agreed with his style of government, but it was never personal between Tom Murphy and Sean Logan. Now it's personal with Sean Logan," said Logan. "He's not welcome in my office. He will not insult the million suburbanites in Allegheny County."

Said Rep. Jeff Habay, R-Shaler, who represents Hampton: "Honestly, we're trying to work in good faith to solve the city's problems. When you run out of facts, that's when you start the personal attacks, I guess."

Like Logan, County Chief Executive Jim Roddey, a Squirrel Hill Republican, said Murphy should "consider stepping aside", due to his alienation of suburbanites and his mishandling of the city budget.

Murphy's statements, Roddey said, were "not only wrong, but perhaps the most inept political statement in a career that has been marked by such ill-advised utterances.

"At a time when the city desperately needs the support and understanding of suburban legislators, the mayor has slammed closed the door that was beginning to be slightly ajar," Roddey said.

Dan Onorato, Allegheny County's chief executive-elect and a Democrat, didn't go as far as Roddey or Logan. But he called Murphy's remarks "unfortunate," and said he disagreed with the mayor's position that suburban racism had blocked consolidation efforts.

"To consolidate services, we have to show that we can provide services at a lower cost and that we can lower taxes. That is what will drive this issue, not those other comments," said Onorato, " "You've got to prove it makes sense to both sides. That's the only issue."

State Rep. Joseph Preston Jr., D-East Liberty, said he agreed with the thrust of Murphy's comments. "Speaking as an African-American, this area is one of the most racist areas in the country," he said. Still, he questioned the mayor's timing.

"The issue is, we're trying to deal with the welfare of the city. It wasn't a timely statement," Preston said.

Rep. John Maher, R-Upper St. Clair, whose office received 30 e-mails complaining about Murphy's comments, said he was "surprised and disappointed" by Murphy's words.

Nonetheless, Maher said, legislators should put their personal feelings about Murphy aside, for the good of the city and the region.

"The fiscal crisis of the city of Pittsburgh is a real problem ... There are any number of excuses folks can embrace to avoid solving the problem," he added.

Murphy's latest comments are destined to become part of the lore of his prickly relations with legislators and suburbanites generally.

The best known comments came after the passage of so-called "stealth legislation" in 1998, which Murphy crowed could pay for new stadiums and had been passed without lawmakers' knowledge. "I would never suggest that legislators don't read the legislation they vote on. That's why we pay them," Murphy said of the bill, which then-Gov. Tom Ridge later vetoed.

Another well-remembered example was his criticism of 20 Mt. Lebanon Sunday school students in 1996 who were booted from Market Square after they tried to give food and clothing to homeless people without a permit.

"It might make them feel very good," Murphy said of the suburban youths. "I think if they truly want to deal with the issue, it would be very helpful for them to open their churches [to the homeless] ... and not come in, spend an hour or two handing things out, and then go back to their very comfortable communities."

Polls by Onorato's campaign in October said 55 percent of respondents countywide held unfavorable opinions of Murphy, with 20 percent favorable. The last time he had a positive poll rating was December 2002, when 42 percent found him favorable and 33 percent unfavorable.

Of the 1.28 million residents counted countywide in the 2000 U.S. Census, 84 percent identified themselves as white and 12 percent black. Of the 334,000 city residents that year, 69 percent were white and 28 percent black.

Since Pittsburgh has a higher percentage of minority residents than Allegheny County, race relations should be part of the discussion if the pair are to merge services, said Larry E. Davis, director of the Center on Race and Social Problems at the University of Pittsburgh.

"What's too bad is that [Murphy's statement] will receive more attention because of its perhaps perceived impropriety, rather than it being a valid argument," Davis said.

Murphy himself stood by his statements yesterday, saying an honest discussion about race will be a necessary part of mergers between the city and county. In a prepared statement, he also issued a sort of apology.

"I had no intention of insulting any of our many suburban friends and supporters, as I truly believe that we are all in this together," Murphy said.